S.F. Criminal Justice System & Racial Discrimination

Hello,

I suggest that we, as a community, should familiarize ourselves with the U.S. Criminal Justice System, and openly share our opinions about how it will effect our role play. Now, starting off, I know many role players want to have fun. I get that, I totally do; however, we have to maintain a sense of realism as well.

The criminal justice system in the United States is far from perfect. In fact, a recent study, which was "commissioned by the San Francisco Public Defender's Office and conducted by the Quattrone Center for the Fair Administration of Justice," found that "minority populations, especially blacks, are booked on more severe charges, more likely to be convicted of felonies and spend more time behind bars compared to white offenders," Pete Suratos explained, "The racial disparity is rooted in the arresting and booking processes as opposed to the court system, according to the study. That point was highlighted by the finding claiming that blacks endure 50 percent more severe charges compared to whites at the time of booking."

"The racial disparity is rooted in the arresting and booking processes as opposed to the court system, according to the study. That point was highlighted by the finding claiming that blacks endure 50 percent more severe charges compared to whites at the time of booking."

How do you guys feel about incorporating racial discrimination into our role play?

Source(s):

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Racial-Disparities-Bias-San-Francisco-Police-Department-Study-431066603.html

It's a touchy subject, but I think there should be OOC permission for it, to be honest.

6 minutes ago, Dae Dae said:

It's a touchy subject, but I think there should be OOC permission for it, to be honest.

Please, speak what's on your mind. Why do you feel this way?

Just depending on the player, it could be taken as offensive to be honest. So I think at least a warning should be given or something. But for proper realism, it's possible. I think there should be racism with thresholds for both Black, White, Asian, w/e race you decide to roleplay on the server.

I definitely see where you're coming from, Dae Dae, and I appreciate your feedback as well as your concern for other players. That's a very honorable characteristic. I'm black in real life, and personally, it doesn't offend me since I understand how the U.S. Justice System's coming. Unfortunately, racial bias does persist. I believe this can open up new doors for role play within law enforcement that effects both illegal and legal roleplay, such as Implicit Bias Training.

You lost me at right about here:

Quote

Now, starting off, I know many role players want to have fun. I get that, I totally do; however, we have to maintain a sense of realism as well.

This isn't real life. Involving racism in your roleplay is heavily regulated to ensure a safe and enjoyable environment for all players. You're not allowed to open factions solely based around hate, you're not allowed to go out there and kill people solely because of their skin color - nothing of the sort - and you're most definitely not allowed to put fake charges on people because of their In Character skin color or your character's beliefs. That's not how any of this works. If you go around roleplaying a racist then that's fine, but there's quite a difference between being a racist In Character and completely ruining the gaming experience of others. No server administration would ever allow In Character racial discrimination to become a problem of such massive scale, to the point where certain characters can get larger (or even smaller) sentences solely because of their race.

And what do I mean by saying all of this? Simple - there's very little actual racism in San Andreas, so don't put your real life mojo on others expecting them to roleplay along with you for no reason. Everything is hunky-dory In Character, so there's no need for us to implement special laws about racial discrimination. Cheers.

No thanks. Conspiracy hit the nail on the head. There may be people who most likely get racially abused in real life in this community, I don't feel they need to have such treatment on a server where you create a safe enivornment for people to play, and enjoy themselves. Promoting such hatred and actions is not something we should be looking to do either, while this is a roleplay server, some things are best left alone. 

While mild ic racism is fine, it shouldn't be taken beyond that. 

Don't see much reason to regulate this OOCly. If people roleplay racists in-character, let it happen, but forcing some kind of regulation for cops or whatever else to sentence people differently on an OOC basis is incredibly questionable. I'm not talking necessarily about some real-life climate but the rumor that the criminal justice discriminates in real life is true but not to the extent that people think, especially people who haven't followed cases or been involved. Especially in a place like San Francisco where the Chief and DA would get sacked if there was widespread racism - look at that scandal a few years ago with the cops texting eachother, all fired.

I think that people who have corrupt cop permission should only mix race colors with prison sentences, OOC regulation about this is just dumb. 

Like there isn't any racist cops out there on the streets irl. Let the people RP however they want their characters and respectively develop them the way the IC events forces them to.

As an example:

 Person A might RP racist cop but if he get assigned with a black partner during the time being in the department, at first they  wouldn't get along . But in the line of duty, one day, they might become good friends due to their everyday struggle to keep the peace and stay alive for one more day. That's how a racist cop might throw his ideology away and become a better person. And that might become a heck of good development and I'd hope to see something like that in the S&V thread one day. 

Here's some food to think about.

6 hours ago, Conspiracy said:

This isn't real life. Involving racism in your roleplay is heavily regulated to ensure a safe and enjoyable environment for all players. You're not allowed to open factions solely based around hate, you're not allowed to go out there and kill people solely because of their skin color - nothing of the sort - and you're most definitely not allowed to put fake charges on people because of their In Character skin color or your character's beliefs. That's not how any of this works. If you go around roleplaying a racist then that's fine, but there's quite a difference between being a racist In Character and completely ruining the gaming experience of others. No server administration would ever allow In Character racial discrimination to become a problem of such massive scale, to the point where certain characters can get larger (or even smaller) sentences solely because of their race.

 

And what do I mean by saying all of this? Simple - there's very little actual racism in San Andreas, so don't put your real life mojo on others expecting them to roleplay along with you for no reason. Everything is hunky-dory In Character, so there's no need for us to implement special laws about racial discrimination. Cheers.

 

6 hours ago, Joker said:

No thanks. Conspiracy hit the nail on the head. There may be people who most likely get racially abused in real life in this community, I don't feel they need to have such treatment on a server where you create a safe enivornment for people to play, and enjoy themselves. Promoting such hatred and actions is not something we should be looking to do either, while this is a roleplay server, some things are best left alone. 

 

While mild ic racism is fine, it shouldn't be taken beyond that. 

I have to react to this because it makes no sense to me at all. What? Most of the unofficial factions that we're going to see on the server are illegal, criminal factions touching on the lugubrious themes of drug trafficking, murder and overall showcasing the lowest of humanity... but racism suddenly is too far? San Fierro isn't la-la land. I don't see how killing people based on skin color (which without justification would be deathmatch anyway) is much different from killing somebody for various other in-character reasons so long there's IC motivation and isn't straight up DM. It happens in real-life, it's not impossible. What you're essentially saying is BA-RP is going to be a safe space because nobody is able to cope with IC racism OOCly.

What's "ruining the gaming experience of others" to you? What if I rob somebody ICly and it ruins their experience or their mood for the day? Everything people roleplay is going to be offensive to somebody, RPing a rape victim can offend somebody who was raped IRL, RPing a homophobe could offend a homosexual IRL, so whose fault would that be? This snowflakery is absurd. Disgusting roleplay such as RPing rape, cannibalism etc are already disallowed without player consent, so let's add racism? What next, RPing sexism, Islamophobia, homophobia or fatophobia? Let people roleplay what they want so long it doesn't break powergaming or metagaming rules. Players need to man up, people are here to roleplay realistically, there's nothing wrong with racism if it's RPed right, just like people are going to RP homophobes and so on.  Disallowing things that may offend people will open the door to restricting more and more RP because people can't handle anything they dislike.

Discrimination and injustice in the justice system is not uncommon. In real-life San Francisco an illegal alien was just acquitted of most criminal charges even though he killed an American and was deported five times previously. There was an Oxford student who was acquitted of stabbing her boyfriend because it would have "damaged her career." The justice system in-game should reflect realities and I see nothing wrong with RPing these, just like corruption happens in police departments and throughout the entire justice system. Should it require OOC permission? Sure why not, to make it minimal. 

There's very little racism in SA based on whom? The server hasn't even opened yet. I could also claim there's very little crime in San Fierro, but that won't change the fact that many factions are going to be non-white illegal gangs.

To answer the OP: Absolutely racial discrimination should have a role in RPing criminal justice. This should be dealt with in-character and should result in severe IC corruption/racism charges/consequences. I will admit that San Fierro ultimately isn't the worst city in the USA when it comes to racism, though. The non-white population outside of Asians is quite small and black crime isn't as big, the black population isn't as much of a problem as for instance LA. SF is a fairly liberal city in real-life and probably amongst the most pro-LGBT cities, so perhaps it should be roleplayed carefully and to a small extent. More research has to be done before RPing this, I'm pretty sure most of the racial discrimination described here is actually due to black people committing the most crimes, as well as the more severe ones, resulting in harsher punishments.

There are some boundaries out there that can't be crossed if we want an active and peace-loving community, @Neaksy.

By your logic we should just start declining every 5th character application because miscarriages happen in real life, yeah? No.

48 minutes ago, Neaksy said:

Disgusting roleplay such as RPing rape, cannibalism etc are already disallowed without player consent, so let's add racism? What next, RPing sexism, Islamophobia, homophobia or fatophobia?

I think there might've been a miscommunication here - I don't think anyone here is saying to put racism on the same pedestal as rape and shit like that. I think people just don't want to put any OOC regulations in place to promote it (or restrict it too tightly, for that matter). I think the "no racist factions" rule is also decent, because who is gonna RP the KKK in San Francisco? That's incredibly unrealistic, and to add on if you're dead set upon that it calls into questions your motivations for doing it. Are you there to live out a fantasy or are you there to portray a character? That doesn't restrict people from RPing Aryan Brotherhood or Public Enemy Number 1, I shouldn't think, because those organizations aren't inherently racist in nature. Racism is used as a recruitment tool but it's nowhere near the top of their priorities - it's more of an intimidation tactic. Other communities have done this in the past, look at LSRP for an example. Gangs like PENI on LSRP actually typically got rid of people with the wrong priorities.

Even though it's a touchy subject, I would've understood if the arguments from those who stands against this would've sound more likely: it is what it is. 

Don't get me wrong, racism is awful, and a lot of people might get sensitive about it, but so it's killing people, losing somebody over drugs overdose, or after a tragic incident.

Now, this is where I am questioning this matter. I would really appreciate if anybody will take his time to explain this objectively,

As far as I'm concerned,  RP is about immitating real life (including crime area), we'll just pretend racism isn't a thing IRL? Instead of punishing anyone OOCly for something purely ICly (I don't really know where the idea of RP-ing racist makes you a psychopath who feeds his need of hatred), you shall create an ICly rule where if you're caught, you can go from a ticket to life inprisonment, depending of how badly you violate this rule.

On the other hand, racism it's not cool, and definetly by how things are going nowadays, implementing this wouldn't help those who are affected by it. But again, that doesn't make killing cool, drugs cool, or anything related to these type of things cool. We have to forbid all these things? In fact someone will get sensitive about it.

Sure, racism can be incorporated in our roleplay, there does not need to be a special rule to state so. Again, this is not real life, it is up to the player whether they wish to RP a racist cop or not.

this topic became too spicy 

It's not likely that you'll get a longer prison sentences based solely on race, unless the sentence time is not defined and based on discretion, but this usually involves other factors as well. There's no such thing as corrupt cop permission, almost all IC corruption is allowed provided it is developed IC. See PD manual for my latest addition regarding corruption that has just been incorporated in. You can roleplay a racist provided you know the boundaries and it doesn't cross into OOC, but you won't be able to use that as an excuse for an action that could potentially lead you into OOC trouble such as DM, OOC corruption, etc.

5 hours ago, Conspiracy said:

There are some boundaries out there that can't be crossed if we want an active and peace-loving community, @Neaksy.

 

By your logic we should just start declining every 5th character application because miscarriages happen in real life, yeah? No.

 

Quite an absurd comparison! Applications are out-of-character. At the point you moderate each player application the characters are already alive and have a backstory, it's not like they're not born yet... I shouldn't have to explain this lol. You're mixing IC and OOC it appears. You can have a "peace-loving community" on an OOC level while at the same time letting people roleplay the most obscene and unlikable characters.

Doing something to a character ICly (insulting, robbing, provoking or murdering a character) doesn't mean you hate the player behind the computer (usually), otherwise we'd all be hating most people. Isn't it a common roleplay etiquette not to take everything OOC? By your logic, why not prohibit illegal characters altogether? Let's all roleplay nice, law-abiding Catholic fellows then.

5 hours ago, Bospy said:

I think there might've been a miscommunication here - I don't think anyone here is saying to put racism on the same pedestal as rape and shit like that. I think people just don't want to put any OOC regulations in place to promote it (or restrict it too tightly, for that matter). I think the "no racist factions" rule is also decent, because who is gonna RP the KKK in San Francisco? That's incredibly unrealistic, and to add on if you're dead set upon that it calls into questions your motivations for doing it. Are you there to live out a fantasy or are you there to portray a character? That doesn't restrict people from RPing Aryan Brotherhood or Public Enemy Number 1, I shouldn't think, because those organizations aren't inherently racist in nature. Racism is used as a recruitment tool but it's nowhere near the top of their priorities - it's more of an intimidation tactic. Other communities have done this in the past, look at LSRP for an example. Gangs like PENI on LSRP actually typically got rid of people with the wrong priorities.

 

I think the misunderstanding is on your end. Nobody is saying to add "OOC regulations" to "promote racism ICly." I'm simply defending the idea that people should have the freedom to roleplay what they wish within the current OOC rules (power, metagaming, DM, sub-par RP etc), even the most offensive things like "racist" or racial supremacist factions. The point of roleplay is to do just that.

As for the KKK in San Fierro, why not? The KKK still exists and there is still a small faction in real-life San Francisco recruiting new members and organizing events. If roleplayed correctly I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed. If the KKK is unrealistic to your standards, what of the many illegal non-white gangs in the Unofficial Factions forum right now? That's fine, even though their number is disproportionally exaggerated. but one or two racist factions in nature is suddenly a problem? Again I don't see why there is outrage over racism as being this huge problem we need to regulate because it's so offensive when people seem to be fine playing in a gang-ridden, crime-infested city full of drug dealers, drug abusers, murderers and so on. Racial discrimination is nowhere near as bad as some of the things that happen in-game.

With regard to what @Pitchounette said, this is a reasonable answer.

33 minutes ago, Neaksy said:

As for the KKK in San Fierro, why not? The KKK still exists and there is still a small faction in real-life San Francisco recruiting new members and organizing events. If roleplayed correctly I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed. If the KKK is unrealistic to your standards, what of the many illegal non-white gangs in the Unofficial Factions forum right now? That's fine, even though their number is disproportionally exaggerated. but one or two racist factions in nature is suddenly a problem? Again I don't see why there is outrage over racism as being this huge problem we need to regulate because it's so offensive when people seem to be fine playing in a gang-ridden, crime-infested city full of drug dealers, drug abusers, murderers and so on. Racial discrimination is nowhere near as bad as some of the things that happen in-game.

You can't really roleplay the KKK correctly in an environment similar to San Francisco or even really explain it, it's like RPing Japanese nationalists in Beijing in the modern day - it just doesn't exist. If there's merit to an organization or some historical reason, maybe I'd be open to it, but RPing the KKK is just wicked unrealistic to the environment we're trying to portray. I don't think anyone is outraged here, either, there only exists one rule regarding racism - you can't make a faction purely revolved around it. Like I said, that probably won't apply to shit like the Aryan Brotherhood or far-right militants.

45 minutes ago, Bospy said:

 

You can't really roleplay the KKK correctly in an environment similar to San Francisco or even really explain it, it's like RPing Japanese nationalists in Beijing in the modern day - it just doesn't exist. If there's merit to an organization or some historical reason, maybe I'd be open to it, but RPing the KKK is just wicked unrealistic to the environment we're trying to portray. I don't think anyone is outraged here, either, there only exists one rule regarding racism - you can't make a faction purely revolved around it. Like I said, that probably won't apply to shit like the Aryan Brotherhood or far-right militants.

Where's that rule? Why do we even need that rule? Who decides what faction is revolved around racism, and which would be allowed or not? Would Black Lives Matter also be prohibited? What if I make any other faction revolved around racism other than the KKK? I don't see what exactly is the point of this. You can absolutely roleplay the KKK correctly in SF. There are small KKK factions in real-life USA and SF is no exception. You do have to remember that San Andreas is a much more extreme world than in real-life. I'm pretty sure the day BA-RP opens, the city will become a gang-infested, crime-ridden city on day one. So it would have a high crime rate but weirdly enough no "racist" or supremacist factions?

If we had to adjust everything to be proportional to real-life, then we'd have to regulate criminal roleplayers to be 1 per 1,000 of the player base (and thus 999 law-abiding civilian RPers vs 1 criminal -- which is realistically impossible on a RP server), and so on. Let people RP what they like so long it doesn't break the rules and doesn't contradict with anything.

It's reasonable to assume the KKK would be a little stronger in the GTA world than in real-life SF. Many people are going to roleplay criminals, racism wouldn't be so uncommon among individuals (and not just from White characters). Besides, the KKK isn't as bad as it used to be. Last lynching was decades ago. Now it mainly consists of marching, doing salutes, burning crosses, wearing silly outfits and recruiting new members. Even then, it's not like a KKK faction would go on a rampage and kill every single black person they see; DMing is still against the rules. They'd be much better than any random illegal gang in the Unofficial Factions forum would be. If you're OK with so many illegal gangs but not one racist faction, it doesn't make sense to me.