S.F. Criminal Justice System & Racial Discrimination

13 minutes ago, Neaksy said:

 

Where's that rule? Why do we even need that rule? Who decides what faction is revolved around racism, and which would be allowed or not? Would Black Lives Matter also be prohibited? What if I make any other faction revolved around racism other than the KKK? I don't see what exactly is the point of this. You can absolutely roleplay the KKK correctly in SF. There are small KKK factions in real-life USA and SF is no exception. You do have to remember that San Andreas is a much more extreme world than in real-life. I'm pretty sure the day BA-RP opens, the city will become a gang-infested, crime-ridden city on day one. So it would have a high crime rate but weirdly enough no "racist" or supremacist factions?

 

If we had to adjust everything to be proportional to real-life, then we'd have to regulate criminal roleplayers to be 1 per 1,000 of the player base (and thus 999 law-abiding civilian RPers vs 1 criminal -- which is realistically impossible on a RP server), and so on. Let people RP what they like so long it doesn't break the rules and doesn't contradict with anything.

 

It's reasonable to assume the KKK would be a little stronger in the GTA world than in real-life SF. Many people are going to roleplay criminals, racism wouldn't be so uncommon among individuals (and not just from White characters). Besides, the KKK isn't as bad as it used to be. Last lynching was decades ago. Now it mainly consists of marching, doing salutes, burning crosses, wearing silly outfits and recruiting new members. Even then, it's not like a KKK faction would go on a rampage and kill every single black person they see; DMing is still against the rules. They'd be much better than any random illegal gang in the Unofficial Factions forum would be. If you're OK with so many illegal gangs but not one racist faction, it doesn't make sense to me.

Most of the gangs in the city probably won't be South African prison gangs or insanely niche stuff like the KKK. If you're unaware, LSRP had a rule pretty much exactly the same as this - there was plenty of skinhead gangs but their main focus wasn't on the racist aspect, as in real life. If someone really wants to roleplay a racist organization like the Hammerskins or something in an environment like San Fierro (which, as I said, is an analogue to one, if not the most liberal city in America), they should be prepared for the potential backlash on an IC basis, as I'm certain there'd be a massive uproar. I don't say this as some far-left radical theorist, in fact center-right in real life, but you can only suspend your disbelief so far when it comes to an organization that hasn't existed in force other than Mississippi and Oklahoma with some other chapters in southern states so far. I'm more concerned about the potential for immersion-breaking roleplay, not the content of the roleplay itself. So I guess you could say I'm not really in the same boat as other people here if they're concerned about the content, although I am concerned specifically about people looking to live out a fantasy - I recall an argument I had in a discord with a faction similar to Aryan Brotherhood where someone who joined was a legitimate crazy person who thought that the faction was about "saving the white race" or something. You need to distance yourself from those people, because there's a difference between developing a character and living out your fantasies - with the ladder, it might further your fucked up nihilistic ideology and give you the wrong ideas, not to mention mixing IC/OOC. The best way to create that distance is to have factions not specifically focused on that kind of content.

42 minutes ago, Neaksy said:

Besides, the KKK isn't as bad as it used to be.

Yeah, if you think anyone's gonna take your arguments in support of mass In Character racism seriously after that statement, then oh boy you're in for a surprise.

I believe we've gone quite off-topic here either way though, OP's concerns were quite different.

I feel like if we incorporate organizations such as Black Lives Matter it will become to chaotic IC and OOC it would literally lead to the need of a 24/7 SWAT or Riot Control Unit's to a huge degree.

29 minutes ago, Neaksy said:

 

Where's that rule? Why do we even need that rule? Who decides what faction is revolved around racism, and which would be allowed or not? Would Black Lives Matter also be prohibited? What if I make any other faction revolved around racism other than the KKK? I don't see what exactly is the point of this. You can absolutely roleplay the KKK correctly in SF. There are small KKK factions in real-life USA and SF is no exception. You do have to remember that San Andreas is a much more extreme world than in real-life. I'm pretty sure the day BA-RP opens, the city will become a gang-infested, crime-ridden city on day one. So it would have a high crime rate but weirdly enough no "racist" or supremacist factions?

 

If we had to adjust everything to be proportional to real-life, then we'd have to regulate criminal roleplayers to be 1 per 1,000 of the player base (and thus 999 law-abiding civilian RPers vs 1 criminal -- which is realistically impossible on a RP server), and so on. Let people RP what they like so long it doesn't break the rules and doesn't contradict with anything.

 

It's reasonable to assume the KKK would be a little stronger in the GTA world than in real-life SF. Many people are going to roleplay criminals, racism wouldn't be so uncommon among individuals (and not just from White characters). Besides, the KKK isn't as bad as it used to be. Last lynching was decades ago. Now it mainly consists of marching, doing salutes, burning crosses, wearing silly outfits and recruiting new members. Even then, it's not like a KKK faction would go on a rampage and kill every single black person they see; DMing is still against the rules. They'd be much better than any random illegal gang in the Unofficial Factions forum would be. If you're OK with so many illegal gangs but not one racist faction, it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm pretty sure you're fine to roleplay whatever you want (let it be KKK for example) but what's your roleplay going to be based around? What are you going to be doing on a daily basis?

You're simply not allowed to make factions which revolve entirely about racism, so don't expect to be holding racist rally's everyday or going around kidnapping/torturing/abusing other players based on their characters race. 

I'm sure that if you wanted to create a KKK faction and actually had a decent idea of what you're going to be roleplaying on a day to day basis that does not completely revolve around racism, nobody would stop you.

I remember there was a KKK faction on LSRP in 2014 based at those poor row houses on 6th/7th street. I don't know anything about them or how long they lasted, I just remember having one of the best shootouts on LSRP with them.

So basically in order to be realistic you want cops and the criminal justice system to be racists... so if my character is black he gets more time in prison? Nah I'm ok.

49 minutes ago, Bospy said:

 

 

Most of the gangs in the city probably won't be South African prison gangs or insanely niche stuff like the KKK. If you're unaware, LSRP had a rule pretty much exactly the same as this - there was plenty of skinhead gangs but their main focus wasn't on the racist aspect, as in real life. If someone really wants to roleplay a racist organization like the Hammerskins or something in an environment like San Fierro (which, as I said, is an analogue to one, if not the most liberal city in America), they should be prepared for the potential backlash on an IC basis, as I'm certain there'd be a massive uproar. I don't say this as some far-left radical theorist, in fact I'm conservative in real life, but you can only suspend your disbelief so far when it comes to an organization that hasn't existed in force other than Mississippi and Oklahoma with some other chapters in southern states so far. I'm more concerned about the potential for immersion-breaking roleplay, not the content of the roleplay itself. So I guess you could say I'm not really in the same boat as other people here if they're concerned about the content, although I am concerned specifically about people looking to live out a fantasy - I recall an argument I had in a discord with a faction similar to Aryan Brotherhood where someone who joined was a legitimate crazy person who thought that the faction was about "saving the white race" or something. You need to distance yourself from those people, because there's a difference between developing a character and living out your fantasies - with the ladder, it might further your fucked up nihilistic ideology and give you the wrong ideas, not to mention mixing IC/OOC. The best way to create that distance is to have factions not specifically focused on that kind of content.

What a silly rule. My posts above still stand with regard to how absurd this rule is. This restriction doesn't make sense because it's inconsistent.

Yes I admitted San Fierro would be one of the more liberal cities in the States but again this is San Andreas and if we had to scale everything to how they would be realistically we wouldn't have so many criminal characters, so many lesbians and so on proportionally. If San Fierro is such a liberal city, then I'm dying to see a Black Lives Matter faction to counter this. Or the government being run by Democrats. But oh, this won't be the case, because SF won't really be such a liberal city when you consider the actual populace of the server. Yes, the environment should have a role in influencing people's roleplay, for instance I shouldn't just make a triad faction in the countryside or a poor street gang faction in the rich area of SF. It has to be consistent. But the KKK etc, they're not impossible, they exist in real-life SF, and prohibiting them makes no sense, removing race of the context of anything about those factions would make them fine (read the response to my last quote).

As for your argument, people have the same misconceptions about those groups OOCly than they would ICly, where's the problem with this? What fantasies are you talking about? Because the only fantasy I see right now is one where no hate groups exist and San Fierro is a la-la land without racist factions.

42 minutes ago, Conspiracy said:

 

 

Yeah, if you think anyone's gonna take your arguments in support of mass In Character racism seriously after that, then you're in for a surprise.

 

I believe we've gone quite off-topic here though, OP's concerns were quite different.

 

Yes, sorry, my bad, didn't know the KKK was still lynching black people and hunting them down every single day all around the country. That the KKK is as bad or worse as it was decades ago when it had a stronger membership. Can you remind me when was the last time there has been a KKK lynching in real-life? How many KKK members are there today in the USA in a year? Can you compare the numbers now and thirty, then sixty years ago? How frequent are KKK incidents today? And what they are precisely? The KKK movement is weak and is a lot more passive, nowadays the worst they do is organize rallies, but from what I get from your post apparently they are burning black neighborhoods and killing minorities regularly.

29 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

I'm pretty sure you're fine to roleplay whatever you want (let it be KKK for example) but what's your roleplay going to be based around? What are you going to be doing on a daily basis?

You're simply not allowed to make factions which revolve entirely about racism, so don't expect to be holding racist rally's everyday or going around kidnapping/torturing/abusing other players based on their characters race. 

 

I'm sure that if you wanted to create a KKK faction and actually had a decent idea of what you're going to be roleplaying on a day to day basis that does not completely revolve around racism, nobody would stop you.

I remember there was a KKK faction on LSRP in 2014 based at those poor row houses on 6th/7th street. I don't know anything about them or how long they lasted, I just remember having one of the best shootouts on LSRP with them.

I'm not going to roleplay a KKK member myself, I'm merely defending the idea that there should be no restrictions on hate group factions so long DMing/PGing/MGing rules aren't broken. That said, what's so bad about holding "racist rallies" everyday, or going around kidnapping/torturing/abusing minorities ICly? Do you realize that this can happen to anybody for any reason outside of race? Literally I could make a faction for pedophiles and serial killers, and kidnap and abuse other people that I randomly find in the streets of SF. Torture is already disallowed unless there is consent from all parties witnessing the RP.

Again, I can kidnap anybody I want ICly for any reason whatsoever, and make a faction of kidnappers and the most disgusting people you can imagine, but as soon as it's about race, then it becomes a problem? What's the difference between kidnapping a random person and kidnapping somebody because they're black, what difference does it make, why is one prohibited and not the other? I don't get it. Racism just offends you so you want it restricted, there's no other way to put it, it's snowflakery.

25 minutes ago, Neaksy said:

I'm not going to roleplay a KKK member myself, I'm merely defending the idea that there should be no restrictions on hate group factions so long DMing/PGing/MGing rules aren't broken. That said, what's so bad about holding "racist rallies" everyday, or going around kidnapping/torturing/abusing minorities ICly? Do you realize that this can happen to anybody for any reason outside of race? Literally I could make a faction for pedophiles and serial killers, and kidnap and abuse other people that I randomly find in the streets of SF. Torture is already disallowed unless there is consent from all parties witnessing the RP.

 

Again, I can kidnap anybody I want ICly for any reason whatsoever, and make a faction of kidnappers and the most disgusting people you can imagine, but as soon as it's about race, then it becomes a problem? What's the difference between kidnapping a random person and kidnapping somebody because they're black, what difference does it make, why is one prohibited and not the other? I don't get it. Racism just offends you so you want it restricted, there's no other way to put it, it's snowflakery.

Why are you taking it so personally? Are you deadset on roleplaying a racist faction? If so, for what reason? Does the RP interest you? Why does the RP interest you? I'm certain nobody is going to be angry if you kidnap people because of racism and rob them/whatever but torture should be consensual and there should be a valid reason for killing that person outside of "He's black!" Because if you don't have a reason outside of that, it's just DM. Nobody would risk murdering somebody in this day and age simply for them being a different skin color - maybe cross-gang rivalries, sure, but you don't see white nationalists patrolling the streets to kidnap random black people and torture them for no reason. This is, to a certain extent, making an issue out of a nonissue. How many people really want to RP a Ku Klux Klan member seriously? It invites trolls. I don't want some crazy ethnonationalist group running around the city kidnapping and killing people based upon their race, that's a retarded gimmick that just invites trolls and DMers to join up so they have a reason to shoot people. If the setting were backwater Mississippi, sure, but it's not. I understand the principle of permitting things for the sake of it, it's free speech. I defend every form of free speech in real life. But it's literally not pragmatic on an RP server to permit people to roleplay radical salafists or domestic terrorists, why should domestic terroristic racists who would theoretically kidnap people be allowed? The KKK isn't necessarily that but the thing you're presenting is essentially that. And more often that not, somebody who roleplays racism does it in such a flawed manner that they're willing to beat up/kill anyone of an opposing race, so it's hard to see how a KKK faction would be peaceful for very long. It's a license to kill. Same as a radical communist guerrilla movement attempting to overthrow the state government and killing any cop they come across.

People never know how to portray these organizations beyond killing other people. That's what it devolves to.

14 minutes ago, Turtle said:

So basically in order to be realistic you want cops and the criminal justice system to be racists... so if my character is black he gets more time in prison? Nah I'm ok.

No. I said we should familiarize ourselves with the San Francisco Criminal Justice System, which has proven to be racially bias to minorities (especially blacks) by booking them on more severe charges, convicting them of felonies, and giving them more time behind bars compared to white offenders, and consider incorporating it into our roleplay.

Guys what are we some BLM activist??? Not all cops are racist savages anymore. But seriously, imo this should be up to a player if they want to roleplay a racist officer or turn the gov racist. 

7 minutes ago, Glockage said:

No. I said we should familiarize ourselves with the San Francisco Criminal Justice System, which has proven to be racially bias to minorities (especially blacks) by booking them on more severe charges, convicting them of felonies, and giving them more time behind bars compared to white offenders, and consider incorporating it into our roleplay.

Regulating this is going to only cause issues. There should be no clause for or against this sort've thing. It's also very subjective if this is the case at all, so it's not even worth delving into.

The reason why organized hate groups aren't allowed is the same reason we won't have a military, they serve no purpose. In a microscopic view, our player-base is simply not suited to handle these factions. The diversity around San Fierro is going to be so rampant, you're going to spend most of your time as an active KKK member being shot or shooting someone else. Take a look at the Faction Forums thread, what do you see? A lot of black, Mexican and Asian roleplay. Also, don't get confused. There isn't a restriction on racism in-character, there is a restriction on creating organized hate groups/factions which solely revolve around racism.

I'm not going to advocate forcing racial bias in character through the script either. If you're a racist cop, that's fine, you can roleplay out your racism to the fullest extent, but I see no reason to script-wise support your in-character beliefs.

59 minutes ago, Bospy said:

 

Why are you taking it so personally? Are you deadset on roleplaying a racist faction? If so, for what reason? Does the RP interest you? Why does the RP interest you? I'm certain nobody is going to be angry if you kidnap people because of racism and rob them/whatever but torture should be consensual and there should be a valid reason for killing that person outside of "He's black!" Because if you don't have a reason outside of that, it's just DM. Nobody would risk murdering somebody in this day and age simply for them being a different skin color - maybe cross-gang rivalries, sure, but you don't see white nationalists patrolling the streets to kidnap random black people and torture them for no reason. This is, to a certain extent, making an issue out of a nonissue. How many people really want to RP a Ku Klux Klan member seriously? It invites trolls. I don't want some crazy ethnonationalist group running around the city kidnapping and killing people based upon their race, that's a retarded gimmick that just invites trolls and DMers to join up so they have a reason to shoot people. If the setting were backwater Mississippi, sure, but it's not. I understand the principle of permitting things for the sake of it, it's free speech. I defend every form of free speech in real life. But it's literally not pragmatic on an RP server to permit people to roleplay radical salafists or domestic terrorists, why should domestic terroristic racists who would theoretically kidnap people be allowed? The KKK isn't necessarily that but the thing you're presenting is essentially that. And more often that not, somebody who roleplays racism does it in such a flawed manner that they're willing to beat up/kill anyone of an opposing race, so it's hard to see how a KKK faction would be peaceful for very long. It's a license to kill. Same as a radical communist guerrilla movement attempting to overthrow the state government and killing any cop they come across.

 

People never know how to portray these organizations beyond killing other people. That's what it devolves to.

I was almost done writing a response to this but it got deleted, so let me summarize.

- I'm not.

- I'm not.

- Not necessarily but I might want to explore this type of roleplay someday.

- I've already addressed this, this is already DM therefore already against the rules.

- You don't see white nats kidnapping black people, correct. However, this is a roleplay server, this is not real-life, this is possible, any sick person in real-life could do this so I don't see why this would be prohibited. By the way, you can already kidnap somebody for any reason whatsoever, and keep them detained for as long as you wish. DMing is just against the rules, and I'm not arguing for allowing DMing.

- Inviting trolls is a nonissue. A KKK faction would invite trolling just like street gangs would invite DMing. By your logic, should we prohibit illegal gangs because they might invite DMing? Or prohibit factions altogether because they might incite metagaming? First, there's no evidence that it would invite a significant portion of trolls. I'm totally fine with the staff closing down factions that have leaderships that roleplay very poorly or troll. I don't see the need for banning racist/hate group factions.

- Again, first off, ethnats don't do this to begin with, and DMing is already against the rules. I could literally make a faction full of kidnappers, serial killers and the most disgusting people you can imagine and who would kidnap characters in the streets randomly; and it wouldn't be against the rules so long as it's RPed well, that there's a valid reason and there is no DMing. But as soon as we talk about racist groups, suddenly it's off-limits? Where's the consistency? Why allow an infinite number of reasons for kidnapping but as soon as it's racially motivated it should be prohibited? It makes no sense!

- Domestic terrorism is already against the rules. Kidnapping people is allowed to my knowledge, it is not uncommon in roleplay servers.

- Come on, the same can literally be said for any illegal faction provoking people for no reason. You think black street gangs aren't racist, and never provoke whites? Why don't we close down all illegal factions to make sure we don't have provocation and DM?

39 minutes ago, tw1ster said:

The reason why organized hate groups aren't allowed is the same reason we won't have a military, they serve no purpose. In a microscopic view, our player-base is simply not suited to handle these factions. The diversity around San Fierro is going to be so rampant, you're going to spend most of your time as an active KKK member being shot or shooting someone else. Take a look at the Faction Forums thread, what do you see? A lot of black, Mexican and Asian roleplay. Also, don't get confused. There isn't a restriction on racism in-character, there is a restriction on creating organized hate groups/factions which solely revolve around racism.

 

I'm not going to advocate forcing racial bias in character through the script either. If you're a racist cop, that's fine, you can roleplay out your racism to the fullest extent, but I see no reason to script-wise support your in-character beliefs.

You can't compare the military with hate groups. You're comparing a military force, a legal government faction with a hate group. There doesn't need to be a military faction because there are player and map limits, it would be useless because you can't go out the map, there are no outside threats to the state of San Andreas, and there would be no use for it. It could be possible to roleplay a state National Guard revolving around training and so on but it would be a waste of resources.

But hate groups are not legal factions, they're unofficial factions made by regular players, while the military would require staff supervision. By the way, you're prohibiting hate groups but you're not prohibiting the military. Otherwise this faction wouldn't be tolerated: https://forum.bayarearoleplay.com/topic/166-united-states-coast-guard/

Saying that "hate groups" serve no purpose is very subjective and absurd to be quite honest. I could argue any other faction serves no real purpose. If somebody wants to start up a University faction, nobody's going to shut it down because it serves no purpose, we'll let it happen and hope for the best. So why not the same for hate group factions? Are we supposed to believe, that in such a diverse city as you say, we have Afro-American, Hispanic street gangs, or Asian triads, but no hate group faction fed up of non-white crime activity, and having racist sentiments? Doesn't sound that diverse to me if you're allowing gangs of criminals, murderers and drug traffickers and abusers on the one hand but not racist factions. And yes, individuals are allowed to be racist, but as soon as they assemble with other "racists" it suddenly becomes a problem?

Anything that creates roleplay has a purpose. So long the leadership roleplays to community standards, doesn't break OOC rules such as PG/MG/DMing, why not? We're supposed to believe that there will be rampant crime in SF but no racist hate groups? I could literally make any other faction and do the exact same stuff what you consider a "hate group" would do, and it would be tolerated, but just because it would be branded as a racist org suddenly it would offend everybody. I really don't see the point of this restriction.

4 hours ago, Neaksy said:

You can't compare the military with hate groups. You're comparing a military force, a legal government faction with a hate group. There doesn't need to be a military faction because there are player and map limits, it would be useless because you can't go out the map, there are no outside threats to the state of San Andreas, and there would be no use for it. It could be possible to roleplay a state National Guard revolving around training and so on but it would be a waste of resources.

 

But hate groups are not legal factions, they're unofficial factions made by regular players, while the military would require staff supervision. By the way, you're prohibiting hate groups but you're not prohibiting the military. Otherwise this faction wouldn't be tolerated: https://forum.bayarearoleplay.com/topic/166-united-states-coast-guard/

 

Saying that "hate groups" serve no purpose is very subjective and absurd to be quite honest. I could argue any other faction serves no real purpose. If somebody wants to start up a University faction, nobody's going to shut it down because it serves no purpose, we'll let it happen and hope for the best. So why not the same for hate group factions? Are we supposed to believe, that in such a diverse city as you say, we have Afro-American, Hispanic street gangs, or Asian triads, but no hate group faction fed up of non-white crime activity, and having racist sentiments? Doesn't sound that diverse to me if you're allowing gangs of criminals, murderers and drug traffickers and abusers on the one hand but not racist factions. And yes, individuals are allowed to be racist, but as soon as they assemble with other "racists" it suddenly becomes a problem?

 

Anything that creates roleplay has a purpose. So long the leadership roleplays to community standards, doesn't break OOC rules such as PG/MG/DMing, why not? We're supposed to believe that there will be rampant crime in SF but no racist hate groups? I could literally make any other faction and do the exact same stuff what you consider a "hate group" would do, and it would be tolerated, but just because it would be branded as a racist org suddenly it would offend everybody. I really don't see the point of this restriction.

The only comparison made was that they serve no purpose and I stand by it. Groups such as the KKK or the New Black Panther Party and so forth will not be created here as of right now. As staff, we've come to the agreement that we don't want to play host to those type of factions. There is "no use" in creating a faction with the sole purpose of hating any other race than their own considering the amount of diversity we're going to have in San Fierro, which is a very small city. If you wish to discuss this with me you can do so in private, and if you're very passionate about seeing organized hate-group roleplay, you can state facts to support a rule change and present solutions along with it. I for one am open to changing rules and crafting the best experience for the player-base as a whole, as are other staff members.

By the way,

https://forum.bayarearoleplay.com/topic/166-united-states-coast-guard/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-2222