Scamming and robbing regulations?

One thing I'd like to mention is that the concept of namechanging makes it impossible for people to not have a lot of money. If all of a sudden you want to namechange and RP a hobo, no one's gonna force you to just /charity your money away, and let's be serious here -- no casual player would just give away their money (or any other script-wise assets for that matter) for some extra immersion. Just saying this in case the whole "people carry a lot of money on them" thing is addressed in the future -- even if a "solution" is found, namechanging would still make it so that people have plenty of money (e.g. in their banks, houses, etc), regardless if they actually want to RP having that much. Also, keep in mind that no SA-MP RP economy can be kept perfect forever, so the amount of money people have at their disposal is bound to increase eventually to large numbers -- there are ways to keep everything in check, but again, nothing's perfect.

So, yeah, people having lots of money on them isn't something that can be "fixed"" overnight, although if I have to be honest it's not a huge problem. It requires work on the script though, that's for sure, and even if it is indeed addressed one day, then that wouldn't mean it's 100% "fixed" once and for all. We'll have to wait and see.

I am against robbery/scamming limits both monetary and on levels, but there should be strict rules around property scamming. It's not so easy to do in real life and shouldn't be as simple as someone sending you money and you driving off because you made them sign a "fake" document transferring the property over, forcing the other party a loss of over a million. Well thought-out/planned and realistic schemes should be allowed with admin approval. Otherwise, the "what's on you is on you" rule should apply to robberies. Implement a debit/credit card system so you can buy things from businesses, or cars (from dealership), directly through your bank account, and implement Neaksy's suggestion above to solve the property issue. That way, robberies can occur freely. Player-to-player transactions are still at risk [illegal players buying guns/drugs, buying cars from other players, etc], and if you get caught slippin' it's your fault for carrying unrealistic amounts of money around.

If there is an ATM feature, maybe impose a limit on the amount that can be removed from one's bank account. Say, $1000, as that's a generally realistic withdraw limit. Or maybe let the player choose their ATM limit from INSIDE a physical bank, depending how confident they are that such an act won't happen to them. This forces illegal roleplayers to be more cautious about where and who they do business with. Unrealistic drug deals occurring at an ATM could result in the robber forcing the victim to withdraw extra money, both scamming them for the drugs and robbing them for an extra $1000 in the process. It opens a world of opportunity and reduces general stupidity/carelessness with money.

I think the whole stealing credit cards thing that tw1ster suggested earlier is a cool idea, but might get too complicated/ridiculous to implement. In real life if your card gets stolen it's pretty easy to call the credit company and get the card deactivated, and void/return the funds lost for those with insurance. I am not in support of that one.

1 hour ago, Conspiracy said:

One thing I'd like to mention is that the concept of namechanging makes it impossible for people to not have a lot of money. If all of a sudden you want to namechange and RP a hobo, no one's gonna force you to just /charity your money away, and let's be serious here -- no casual player would just give away their money (or any other script-wise assets for that matter) for some extra immersion. Just saying this in case the whole "people carry a lot of money on them" thing is addressed in the future -- even if a "solution" is found, namechanging would still make it so that people have plenty of money (e.g. in their banks, houses, etc), regardless if they actually want to RP having that much. Also, keep in mind that no SA-MP RP economy can be kept perfect forever, so the amount of money people have at their disposal is bound to increase eventually to large numbers -- there are ways to keep everything in check, but again, nothing's perfect.

 

So, yeah,  people having lots of money on them isn't something that can be "fixed"" overnight, although if I have to be honest it's not a huge problem. It requires work on the script though, that's for sure, and even if it is indeed addressed one day, then that wouldn't mean it's 100% "fixed" once and for all. We'll have to wait and see.

 

A big point about namechanges is that a lot of people make an alt to earn money with and then decide to switch their slots. I know of several people who legitimately had greasy ERP alts for this purpose - if robberies have no limit, why would people not choose to make a random gang dude who gets high and robs because he needs to? It's just gonna be the same thing, people robbing until they're satisfied. And even then, after that, it will be a self-perpetuating cycle because the robbers who NC to a new character will get robbed on that new character and potentially lose money.

Anyways, rambling. There needs to be a limit at server start. Even a level limit, too, frankly. I'd be fine removing a level limit after the server gets off of the ground to teach new players the world isn't as forgiving, but not having a robbery/scam limit just invites people to make characters solely focused on that purpose. Of course, I think rules like people trying to circumvent a scam by being willing to pay 10k more than the price is ridiculous, that kind of stuff should not be allowed.

11 minutes ago, Bospy said:

A big point about namechanges is that a lot of people make an alt to earn money with and then decide to switch their slots. I know of several people who legitimately had greasy ERP alts for this purpose - if robberies have no limit, why would people not choose to make a random gang dude who gets high and robs because he needs to? It's just gonna be the same thing, people robbing until they're satisfied. And even then, after that, it will be a self-perpetuating cycle because the robbers who NC to a new character will get robbed on that new character and potentially lose money.

 

Anyways, rambling. There needs to be a limit at server start. Even a level limit, too, frankly. I'd be fine removing a level limit after the server gets off of the ground to teach new players the world isn't as forgiving, but not having a robbery/scam limit just invites people to make characters solely focused on that purpose. Of course, I think rules like people trying to circumvent a scam by being willing to pay 10k more than the price is ridiculous, that kind of stuff should not be allowed.

As I've mentioned previously, in a scenario with no robbing limits, if there were so many people looking for people to rob to make money, then nobody would have money on themselves to begin with, they would keep all their money safe in their bank account. As a result, people would rarely rob because it is an effort that is rarely rewarding. The reason people carry more than $500 in cash on LSRP is because you can't use your bank account when using savings. People would automatically deposit the money they earned in cash once they get the chance, even more if there is a interest rate.

Just now, Neaksy said:

As I've mentioned previously, in a scenario with no robbing limits, if there were so many people looking for people to rob to make money, then nobody would have money on themselves to begin with, they would keep all their money safe in their bank account. As a result, people would rarely rob because it is an effort that is rarely rewarding, and the robberies would be more rare. The reason people carry more than $500 in cash on LSRP is because you can't use your bank account when using savings. People would automatically deposit the money they earned in cash once they get the chance, even more if there is a interest rate.

People would still chance it, that's the thing. People chanced it on LSRP every day. I can tell you I got robbed four times in one day when I roleplayed in Las Colinas. They weren't going after money, they wanted guns from gangmembers. We kept our guns inside cars, of course, but it's annoying to have to halt your roleplay every time someone sketchy pulls up. And the robberies aren't even quality. It's literally '/me frisks' and they force you to be as quick as possible. They don't put any effort into the roleplay, it's moreso an OOC process.

9 minutes ago, Neaksy said:

As a result, people would rarely rob because it is an effort that is rarely rewarding, and the robberies would be more rare.

I just remembered about this. Considering money is one of the few things people lust over during everyday robberies, making it so that people carry little or no money on them (while there's no limit to how much you can rob) could very well make a lot of robberies not fun, especially for people who want to RP thugs and such. Players have no immediate costs so there won't be a reason for them to carry a lot of money on them. The only ones who'd have money on them (and be robbed for all of their money, all the time) would be inexperienced newcomers that don't know how to utilize the bank's commands, like /deposit.

Ah, I guess there'll never be a balance.

9 minutes ago, Bospy said:

 

People would still chance it, that's the thing. People chanced it on LSRP every day. I can tell you I got robbed four times in one day when I roleplayed in Las Colinas. They weren't going after money, they wanted guns from gangmembers. We kept our guns inside cars, of course, but it's annoying to have to halt your roleplay every time someone sketchy pulls up. And the robberies aren't even quality. It's literally '/me frisks' and they force you to be as quick as possible. They don't put any effort into the roleplay, it's moreso an OOC process.

They were looking for guns, not money then, adding a money limit would not change much since that's not necessarily what they're after. Robberies aren't the best roleplay experience, I'll give you that. On LS-RP people don't rob to get rich, as the $500 limit makes it hardly beneficial. Banning them/restricting their occurrence is another topic, there are ways to deal with this ICly, pretty sure if a civilian gets robbed, they'd look for a way to defend themselves next time (getting a concealed carry license) or be more careful.

Just now, Neaksy said:

They were looking for guns, not money then, adding a money limit would not change much since that's not necessarily what they're after. Robberies aren't the best roleplay experience, I'll give you that. Banning them/restricting their occurrence is another topic, there are ways to deal with this ICly, pretty sure if a civilian gets robbed, they'd look for a way to defend themselves next time (getting a concealed carry license) or be more careful.

As soon as you get rid of the money limit, robberies will no longer be about guns, but only about money. And there will be more, because as soon as it becomes more lucrative and profitable than doing script jobs, people will do it every day. You may not think it, but I know from experience. I've watched people do stuff like this. It's not fun for anyone.

3 minutes ago, Conspiracy said:

I just remembered about this. Considering money is the only thing people lust over during robberies, making it so that people carry little or no money on them (while there's no limit to how much you can rob) could very well make a lot of robberies not fun, especially for people who want to RP thugs and such. Players have no immediate costs so there won't be a reason for them to carry a lot of money on them. The only ones who'd have money on them (and be robbed for all of their money, all the time) would be inexperienced newcomers that don't know how to utilize the bank's commands, like /deposit.

 

Ah, I guess there'll never be a balance.

Inexperienced newcomers can learn the hard way, I mean they wouldn't have a lot of money to begin with so their loss would be recoverable. I think there's no excuse for newcomers not knowing how the banking system work though, it's not hard at all.

1 hour ago, Highwire said:

I think the whole stealing credit cards thing that tw1ster suggested earlier is a cool idea, but might get too complicated/ridiculous to implement. In real life if your card gets stolen it's pretty easy to call the credit company and get the card deactivated, and void/return the funds lost for those with insurance. I am not in support of that one.

The main selling point behind the debit card suggested is the realization that we aren't going to be able to carbon-copy the real life system, but we can SA:MPify it. It's a relatively simple suggestion though I don't know how it can be too complicated.

• All players are assigned an account specific debit card to which they can access all their funds regularly. You can see a player's full name and banking account number on their card.
• Give players the ability to transfer their card to other players (for robbing scenarios ... potential pick pocket RP ... and form of identification ... etc)
• We impose a withdraw limit from the ATM, which is conveniently our robbing maximum.
• A victim of robbing could report the robbery to the police as any robbery reporting would go.
• The criminal has the ability to withdraw the money from an ATM in an (X) hour period (before it is ICly deactivated)
• Player recieves an automated text (X) hours later, saying their debit card has been seized and a new card has been issued to them.
• Player drives to pre-determined location/building where they can either type a /debitcard command or go through another process to retrieve it from that place.

Essentially this removes unrealistic cash-on-hand portion of "if the money's on you, you're carrying it." debate because the money is now considered to be in plastic, rather than paper. Which really makes sense considering the time we live in. It's just a suggestion though, probably more of a pipe dream than anything. I just haven't seen a system that I feel properly handles the money on a player.

Just now, Neaksy said:

Inexperienced newcomers can learn the hard way, I mean they wouldn't have a lot of money to begin with so their loss would be recoverable. I think there's no excuse for newcomers not knowing how the banking system work though, it's not hard at all.

Seeing newcomers leave in flocks because they keep getting robbed would be bad though.

Plus, not all of the money you earn script-wise is directly deposited into your bank account, at least not yet -- this would mean that, until all legal income and transactions are made possible script-wise through the bank, robberies are gonna be causing more damage than benefit. I think.

Here's my suggestion:

Basically, a player can type a /rob command. This command requires the consent of two parties to succeed. It's moreso a formality. This /rob command deducts a random amount of money from someone, and the idea is that that's the amount of cash they have on them ICly. The random number can't go beyond 5000, or some smaller number, but it's always random. That way there's a variance.

5 minutes ago, Conspiracy said:

 

Seeing newcomers leave in flocks because they keep getting robbed would be bad though.

 

Plus, not all of the money you earn script-wise is directly deposited into your bank account, at least not yet -- this would mean that, until all legal income and transactions are made possible script-wise through the bank, robberies are gonna be causing more damage than benefit. I think.

I don't see the problem really, since they're new they wouldn't lose a considerable amount of money, and they'd only really be robbed once before realizing they need to keep their money safe. Yeah I understand newcomers won't be too familiar with the server but that doesn't mean we should give them protections like they're babies, if they leave over a robbery then they don't have the right mentality to begin with.

1 minute ago, tw1ster said:

 

The main selling point behind the debit card suggested is the realization that we aren't going to be able to carbon-copy the real life system, but we can SA:MPify it. It's a relatively simple suggestion though I don't know how it can be too complicated.

• All players are assigned an account specific debit card to which they can access all their funds regularly. You can see a player's full name and banking account number on their card.
• Give players the ability to transfer their card to other players (for robbing scenarios ... potential pick pocket RP ... and form of identification ... etc)
• We impose a withdraw limit from the ATM, which is conveniently our robbing maximum.
• A victim of robbing could report the robbery to the police as any robbery reporting would go.
• The criminal has the ability to withdraw the money from an ATM in an (X) hour period (before it is ICly deactivated)
• Player recieves an automated text (X) hours later, saying their debit card has been seized and a new card has been issued to them.
• Player drives to pre-determined location/building where they can either type a /debitcard command or go through another process to retrieve it from that place.

Essentially this removes unrealistic cash-on-hand portion of "if the money's on you, you're carrying it." debate because the money is now considered to be in plastic, rather than paper. Which really makes sense considering the time we live in. It's just a suggestion though, probably more of a pipe dream than anything. I just haven't seen a system that I feel properly handles the money on a player.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm expecting from a debit card system, this coincides with what I've suggested and I very much hope this is implemented some time in the future.

Regardless of what happens with the whole money/robbery thing we've been talking about for an hour on Discord, I just want y'all to know that management has plenty of experience and knowledge to make the right decisions for server launch, so don't be frightened or anything, they won't implement something that has a chance of failure. A compromise/balance is what's always sought after. Plus, the best part about server rules is that they can be changed with ease, so no worries haha. Me personally, I don't mind how robberies and money transactions turn out to be, I'm fine with anything as long as the community is well and thriving.

2 hours ago, tw1ster said:

 

The main selling point behind the debit card suggested is the realization that we aren't going to be able to carbon-copy the real life system, but we can SA:MPify it. It's a relatively simple suggestion though I don't know how it can be too complicated.

• All players are assigned an account specific debit card to which they can access all their funds regularly. You can see a player's full name and banking account number on their card.
• Give players the ability to transfer their card to other players (for robbing scenarios ... potential pick pocket RP ... and form of identification ... etc)
• We impose a withdraw limit from the ATM, which is conveniently our robbing maximum.
• A victim of robbing could report the robbery to the police as any robbery reporting would go.
• The criminal has the ability to withdraw the money from an ATM in an (X) hour period (before it is ICly deactivated)
• Player recieves an automated text (X) hours later, saying their debit card has been seized and a new card has been issued to them.
• Player drives to pre-determined location/building where they can either type a /debitcard command or go through another process to retrieve it from that place.

Essentially this removes unrealistic cash-on-hand portion of "if the money's on you, you're carrying it." debate because the money is now considered to be in plastic, rather than paper. Which really makes sense considering the time we live in. It's just a suggestion though, probably more of a pipe dream than anything. I just haven't seen a system that I feel properly handles the money on a player.

Yeah that's fine, basically what I suggested with the debit cards. As long as there's the $1000 limit shouldn't be a problem. This is the only really viable way to avoid everyone being forced to carry unrealistic amounts of money on-hand.

cant talk about it before seeing the economy

On 1/10/2018 at 7:26 PM, tw1ster said:

 

The main selling point behind the debit card suggested is the realization that we aren't going to be able to carbon-copy the real life system, but we can SA:MPify it. It's a relatively simple suggestion though I don't know how it can be too complicated.

• All players are assigned an account specific debit card to which they can access all their funds regularly. You can see a player's full name and banking account number on their card.
• Give players the ability to transfer their card to other players (for robbing scenarios ... potential pick pocket RP ... and form of identification ... etc)
• We impose a withdraw limit from the ATM, which is conveniently our robbing maximum.
• A victim of robbing could report the robbery to the police as any robbery reporting would go.
• The criminal has the ability to withdraw the money from an ATM in an (X) hour period (before it is ICly deactivated)
• Player recieves an automated text (X) hours later, saying their debit card has been seized and a new card has been issued to them.
• Player drives to pre-determined location/building where they can either type a /debitcard command or go through another process to retrieve it from that place.

Essentially this removes unrealistic cash-on-hand portion of "if the money's on you, you're carrying it." debate because the money is now considered to be in plastic, rather than paper. Which really makes sense considering the time we live in. It's just a suggestion though, probably more of a pipe dream than anything. I just haven't seen a system that I feel properly handles the money on a player.

• Characters can register a credit card at a bank. You can see a character's full name and banking account number on their card.
• Give players the ability to transfer their card to other players.
• We allow players to transfer *$1,000 per day or *$2,500 per week, withdraw a **limit of their choosing once per day or make purchases of any size.
• Make command "/card" or "/creditcard", when toggled, enables/disables "/pay" or similar commands using credit card. Should include client message. In order to use "/pay" or similar commands, the player must enter "/pay [PIN Number]".
• A victim of robbing could report the robbery to the police as any robbery reporting would go.
• The criminal has the ability to withdraw the money from an ATM until the card owner calls their bank to deactivate their card.
• Player drives to a bank where they can renew their deactivated card.

* https://www.bankofamerica.com/online-banking/service-agreement.go

Transfers submitted to the accounts of other Bank of America customers may not total more than $1,000 during any 24-hour period or $2,500 during any 7-day period for personal accounts. If you are a U.S. Trust or Merrill Lynch Wealth Management client you may have higher limits for this type of transfer. Please contact your advisor for more information on your limits. If you are a Small Business customer, you may also have higher limits for this type of transfer. In addition, for all customers, we may limit the total amount of money that any Bank of America customer can receive through these transfers.

** https://www.quora.com/What-is-my-daily-ATM-withdrawal-limit-on-my-Bank-of-America-Debit-Card

Assuming you are really asking about your own BofA ATM card, you already know the answer. If you are planning to use someone else’s (probably not legally), it depends on how the user set their daily withdrawal limits. The old default was $500 USD/ per day. When you set up your card, you had the option of adjusting it. I don’t recall what the upper limit is but my sense was that it was absurdly high for my purposes If you anticipate attempting illegal use of a card, it depends how greedy you are.

Assuming you are the legitimate user, you can reset the limit either at the ATM or on-line.. Do try to avoid making it higher than your normal cash balance. This is as much as I would like to say - this is one of those questions that worries me.

5% of ur on hand cash

I think that we should avoid having commands for robberies, and that the limit amount of a robbery should be a percentage of cash, instead of a fixed amount. This way, you'd be more wary with how much you're carrying. I'd like to see the credit card idea implemented, it would add some more RP for sure.

Either way, I mean, scams have been done properly on all servers I've been on, the majority of them had no issues. So that's not a problematic field. But robberies are, many players misunderstand how they're done, and yeah, I understand that some people have seen some video where this dude on a bike commits a robbery in the middle of the day, on a busy street, but take the following factors in mind:

1 - It rarely happens.

2 - It happened, the dude got shot and probably died because he was a dumb-ass.

In other words, we should have some realism rules enforced for robberies. They shouldn't be done in public places, even if there are no players around, they should not be done randomly, the robber should put as much RP into it as possible, not the half-assed /me frisks X and /me steals X's gun and money. That's silly and it happens a lot, it's in human nature, people always look for the easy way.

I'd love to see less robberies, and more quality put in them. I don't like going after past examples, however, I strongly believe that this scourge of LSRP shitty robberies will happen here as well unless we crush it from the beginning. Cons are obvious, it drives people away and destroys RP scenarios.

On 21/01/2018 at 8:24 PM, lordt said:

5% of ur on hand cash

People gonna have the calculator up and ready to go!