Regular Drug Names

Copied from my post in the announcement thread but brought here with several additions.

If you are new to my large blocks of texts, my thoughts are disordered and I essentially word diarrhea all over the paper, but there is merit to what I say. Please read the entirety of the post if you are AGAINST regular drug names.

If you are reading this thread and outright disagree off the bat, please read the entire post to understand my viewpoint (and the viewpoint of many illegal roleplayers). Illegal roleplay isn't even my main focus on BARP, I am solely interested in legal roleplay with a somewhat active illegal alt.

@DamianC Is there any way to convince you to change drugs back to their normal names? According to the original GTAs, they WERE fictional (1 and 2), but during 3 and during San Andreas they were openly called by their names/nicknames on several occasions. I know your point was that things were 'vague' in the game universe, but according to the wikipedia (and the games themselves) this is false.

If the case is to make them nicknames, if we could have some 100% certain examples it'd be ideal. If it's 100% necessary for nicknames, PLEASE make them real-life equivalents as listed below - they will be the most recognizable. I've spoken to multiple people who initially expressed real interest in the server but instantly became disappointed when I've told them about the drug changes. I understand the point here isn't to make a big ass server on the tier of X or Y, but it's very disappointing, frankly, to not be able to convince friends to come here just because of this problem. And it's a really simple problem.

It would be incredibly goofy as a correctional officer/cop to have somebody RP stuffing 5 "spanks" in their rectum, frankly.

If the intention is to make the server Rockstar friendly, then real life names for the drugs actually makes sense unless you're specifically seeking out obscure parts of the games themselves. I think a good compromise is this, like how Rockstar had it - they never went into the deep effects, they never portrayed how terrible they were, and they never glamorized them. Do that exactly. There doesn't need to be any notable effects aside from maybe some screen effects or health changes, but aside from that there should be no requirements.

http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Drugs

In fact, there isn't any "fictional" names for drugs listed outside of a small list. Drugs are referred to as names I'll list below;

Smack/Regular Name/H/Dope - Heroin

Bleach/Acid/Peyote/Some other chemical - LSD/Peyote

Weed/Grass/Herb - Marijuana

Crank/Meth/Ice - Methamphetamines

Sherm - PCP

Blow/Snow/White/Crack - Cocaine

Downer - Generic downers

Uppers - Generic uppers

I think illegal roleplayers overwhelmingly support the names of drugs be equivalent to real life, honestly. It would avoid so much conflict if that was the means. I hate comparing things to other communities - but drugs being named the same as their real life equivalents has never been detrimental at all. In fact, I think naming them something different would turn people away from the community because they think we're attempting to emulate an RPG.

The drugs below are too small or don't have enough mention, in my personal opinion, to base our system off of.

Here's a list of the drugs included in-game:

http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Cocaine

http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Weed

http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Heroin

http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Methamphetamine

https://gyazo.com/90e508c922c45c98e310a3f256a0d2ae

The main reason 1 and 2 never went into what specifically the drugs were or made fictional equivalents is the same as movies from the era. It was taboo. But the later games went into some good detail and did not shy away. Look at GTA 5 - you can make drug warehouses and cultivate/sell drugs that are real life equivalents. 

I mean, this is listed formally on the largest GTA wiki. If you need proof;

http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

The number of articles and pages just goes to show how much vetting this article probably went through. Initially I was okay with the idea of having alternative names, but when the largest and most popular wikipedia says this, I don't think we should shy away from regular drug names. I understand wanting to provide an escape from real life, but the game itself emulates real life with drugs. I'm fine with San Andreas being a fictional place and all, that's great, but having fictional drugs is a bit too much. I don't think anyone will join the community and become uncomfortable by drugs being present in the script, as drugs play a huge part in every campaign just on the basis of the characters being criminal. The largest part of criminal enterprises in the United States is the drug trade. If the intention is to do a real life roleplay and emulate San Francisco, then we should emulate the drug trade and criminal underworld within San Francisco. If people were bent up out of shape in this regard, they certainly would not spend their time in a real life roleplay server, especially one with daily shootouts, police corruption, strip clubs, kidnappings, illicit dealings, assassinations, and murder. We can't draw the line at drugs. I say don't draw the line at all here. I'm fine with banning pedophilia and racist factions, though, but that's because it steps in the way of roleplay. By regulating drug names to be differently named scriptwise, it actually might restrict or demotivate people specifically dealing around that aspect of the RP.

If the nicknames are really absolutely necessary, why? What benefit does it give to the atmosphere of the server? Who does it benefit? This game really isn't meant for children, and we shouldn't market it for children. Hot Coffee was part of Rockstar's game initially but was removed. Does this mean ERP should be gotten rid of or banned? I'm no advocate for it, frankly I hate ERP in general, but it's a good question. We need to decide how "Rockstar friendly" we want to be if that's the direction we're going in, because drugs are an integral part of criminal roleplay, and making the wrong decision here could alienate a huge portion of the people interested in the server and even cause people to leave on the basis of the server not being their cup of coffee. If you have the same opinion as me, more is much better than less, and I think compromise is the best case scenario here. We need to have a dialogue if there is need for compromise. I think you may be hard pressed to find a criminal roleplayer with a lot of experience who doesn't want real names. There may be some outliers, of course, but I am certain the main majority will agree. I know people already outright willing to leave just on this basis. That saddens me, because this community has really huge potential. I'm sure nobody here wants to play in an empty city.

It's worth looking at this from a legal perspective, too. What the hell is a detective supposed to say when he seized 50 grams of spank from Johnny Smith in Garcia? Does he note that down in his casefile regarding Johnny Smith's 100% serious Crip gang with fully mapped out real life structural details and realistic roleplay as "I seized 50 spank from Johnny Smith today." Does anyone see where that can go a bit awry? What's a spank? What's the legal definition of a spank? What's the street value of a spank? Who sells it? What does it do? What ingredients make spank? What side effects does it have? If it was a real life drug, all those questions would easily be answered. Law enforcement roleplay, especially as investigators, might suffer even more than illegal roleplay. I would not want to fill out a form saying that I seized 50 zoom-zooms while I was processing a suspect. That's just too goofy. If the cops DON'T need to refer to drugs by their script names, then why have the system in place at all? If a detective can write on his casefile he saw an exchange where an eight-ball of meth was passed, but the script says it was actually an eight-ball of ice, is it ice or meth? The semantics are too complicated. If a police officer finds a bag of zoom-zooms underneath the dashboard, does he yell out to other officers on-scene that he found zoom-zooms? It's unnecessary.

13 hours ago, DamianC said:

So I will try not to speak for R* and re-iterate by saying it's my opinion that R* left certain social issues as innuendos or very vague and in terms of drugs they always made sure to not highlight it as something fun nor appealing. I also for one don't enjoy the dark nature of real drugs and the conversations that surround them. This is highly controversial I understand but I generally feel it's an aspect of the server I do not want so much emphasis on anymore. It doesn't mean I'm going to be naming Cocaine as "Sugar" or anything like that however, and they will still have proper un-biased development towards them in terms of distribution and such.

I encourage you: please rethink this stance. Drugs are the main focus of street gangs - that is the main source of income for almost every single ethnic street gang. You do not need to officially condone the usage of drugs or even the idea of using them in real life. In fact, you could ban any discussion of the usage of real life drugs outright and I don't think anyone would complain. But there is a huge difference between the game and real life, and I'm certain everyone realizes that. I initially agreed with this solution because I hadn't looked deeply into it, but upon further inspection it's very clear that Rockstar did not pull any punches when it came to drugs in their old games. They did not depict the outright use of hardcore drugs, but they certainly implied that they were being sold. I don't enjoy the dark nature of gangs, but in order to have an enjoyable RP server, they are a necessity. Drugs are in the same vein and tie into gangs. If you do not have real drugs, gangs will be composed purely of people only interested in gunfights and DM. You can even stipulate specific regulations specifying gangs to not glorify drugs or to have certain regulations surrounding the roleplay within reason.

There's a huge difference between portraying a street gang and being in one. It's the same principle as the racist faction ban, to be truthful - the reason racist factions are banned is because they create too much conflict. To institute a restriction here, though, would actually create conflict itself, because gang roleplayers who aren't motivated by the realistic drug portrayals will instead depict firearms trafficking - that leads to shootouts and deaths. There won't be nearly as much attachment to a falsely named drug.

I know real life conversations on drugs can be subjective, but here's my view.

On the point of these social issues being vague, back then they were left vague because the drug epidemic was not nearly as large of a problem as it is today and therefore played a much less detailed role, such as Vice City. GTA has always attempted to satirize aspects of society. You can see that they have started playing a huge role in the modern games just as a result of the changing conversation on drugs. GTA 5, as I mentioned before, has specific multiplayer missions where you garner ingredients to make and cultivate drugs for use. You can say this glorifies them, but the characters in shows like Breaking Bad or GTA 5 are purposefully portrayed as being terrible, malicious, sociopathic people who sell drugs without any regards for human life. This is a stark contrast to the characters of the old GTAs where they may have been presented as smart career criminals. More often than not it's the former mixed with the ladder.

In terms of real life, this is a very subjective issue, but the most effective means of preventing drug use is not to completely disregard drugs or ignore their existence, but to acknowledge that they are a problem. Nobody is asking for drugs to be glorified or encouraging the use of drugs, but replacing them scriptwise with a different name is very demotivating on the surface and adds a layer which people must explain to new players.

Please consider what I've written if you support fictional drug names. If you are deadset or entrenched, I hope I have made you consider otherwise - you may not have been involved deeply in an illegal faction, but for hardcore roleplayers who really WANT to accurately portray a gang, a script name change would limit it by much more than I can realistically type. I'd need to type a book to cover every aspect.

Summary for the illiterate/TLDR crowd (if you're an admin or staff, please read the full post - disregarding the entire context/content may result in misconstruing what I have to say and is kinda disrespectful):

Don't have false/nicknames for drugs in-game. Use the scientific names.

If you wish to argue the point, answer why alternative names are necessary or why you think they are beneficial. Although they may be a minor issue to you, they are a major issue to me and many other people, on the legal and illegal side.

Based upon the negative response of many people, I see no pragmatic reason to enforce a standard which many people feel will alienate them.

I agree on this, It should just remain the original names instead of all this street names.

Yeah, I think I've made my views on this pretty clear.  Ideally, I would like it if we just used real names.  Obviously if Damian and others are dead set on using fictional names, I'd be willing to compromise.  I don't mean to sound rude, but I think the names from Conspiracy's suggestion just sound stupid for the most part.  This is something that will make or break the server for me, and if we do go the route of fictional names I would like them to be at least realistic sounding.  Not zoom zooms, not toilet cleaner, not zoombi.  Something realistic.

That said, I think the idea of generically using "upper" and "downer" is fantastic.  It leaves it open for the player to roleplay whatever they want it to be, provided it falls into that category.

You nailed it, Bospy.

I 100% agree with what you have written. We should be role playing around real drugs and their side effects, not made up ones. 

Yes!

Full support.

I agree.

Great point. Having forgotten how drugs are dealt with in the games I assumed what Damian said made sense. While I do believe that we should use GTA equivalents when they exist, GTA already uses real-life drug names so I see no reason why the server would officially name them something else in the script, there's no reason to over-complicate things, real-life drugs exist in GTA. This would be too disruptive.

13 minutes ago, Neaksy said:

Great point. Having forgotten how drugs are dealt with in the games I assumed what Damian said made sense. While I do believe that we should use GTA equivalents when they exist, GTA already uses real-life drug names so I see no reason why the server would officially name them something else in the script, there's no reason to over-complicate things, real-life drugs exist in GTA. This would be too disruptive.

And to those specifically who see no reason to be passionate about an issue like this, you have very likely not partaken in gang roleplay or drug trafficking organizations. There's a reason mafias in the USA dropped their "no-drug" policies during the 70s - cash money. Understanding the drugs you sell is a huge part of the business. If you make a bad batch of heroin by using too much of X ingredient, you attract police attention just on the basis of people OD'ing. If you sell marijuana, you need to be able to know the quality of it in order to predict the best price for it. If you're selling crack wholesale, you need to know how much its been cut with replacement material.

If there is a necessity to introduce GTA drugs as well, I don't really mind so long as the real life drugs are there too.

Completely agree. I'd like to see all the real life drugs and the GTA drugs added, it'd be a neat touch. 

Realistic drugs names are a necessity imo, and a lot of people are going to not want to roleplay without them. It's a huge part of illegal factions and their roleplay.

It may not seem important but to a lot, it is. It really does ruin immersion and it'll effect people's roleplay as well. People have done and will continue to do a lot of research based on real life drugs to properly roleplay said x faction that deals in x version of said x drug. That roleplay will be significantly limited & reduced with /only/ the addition of "gta-created" drugs.

It's simpler and easier for players to understand the drugs, and how to role play with them, if the drugs are called by their real names. Most players, even beginners, will have some sort of knowledge on what to do if another player hands them things like weed, cocaine, heroin. But if you hand them things like spank, zap, or wizz — they won't know what to do. Made up names are going to overcomplicate drug role play and create an unnecessary learning process.

Calling meth and cocaine by their real names works. Calling them a slang variant like crank and blow works. Calling them descriptions like crystal powder and white powder works. But calling them things like toilet cleaner and spank won't work. I think the last names won't win the players over and the majority of the players will end up using real drug names, so it'll be pointless in the end. I'm more in favor with this thread than the other one.

Fully support please dont make me roleplay cooking "spank" 

I don't understand why you (most likely) spent a good amount of your life typing so much for a game. I haven't read the entire post because it's too long, I think you could have made a point in just a couple of paragraphs. 

I agree that the drug names should be related to real life, and I also agree to DamianC when he says that portraying drugs to a great detail is essentially portraying a real life detail that ruins countless lives and is pretty much horrific. 

This goes in the same bucket with RPing rape, dismemberment and other things in the likes. I honestly think that some things are better out of the game. For the ones that disagree, no offense but it's honestly not normal. 

6 minutes ago, Buck said:

I don't understand why you (most likely) spent a good amount of your life typing so much for a game. I haven't read the entire post because it's too long, I think you could have made a point in just a couple of paragraphs. 

 

I agree that the drug names should be related to real life, and I also agree to DamianC when he says that portraying drugs to a great detail is essentially portraying a real life detail that ruins countless lives and is pretty much horrific. 

 

This goes in the same bucket with RPing rape, dismemberment and other things in the likes. I honestly think that some things are better out of the game. For the ones that disagree, no offense but it's honestly not normal. 

I spent about 20 minutes writing it up because it's an issue I feel passionate about. But nobody is arguing that there is a requirement for people to portray addiction. Drugs ruin lives, but this is a videogame where kidnapping and killing people is acceptable? If it's necessary to censor drugs, then you need to also censor murder, kidnapping, gang violence, brawling, depression, suicides, police corruption, and conflict in general. Because if you accept all of those things, why are drugs not acceptable? Drugs are almost certainly not on the same tier as rape and pedophilia. People that use drugs aren't on that tier, either. I'm perfectly fine banning certain forms of RP, especially pedophilia, but drugs do not come close to the amount of danger or impact that something like that has. It has never been detrimental to any server.

The argument I ask you is this: if it's a game, why is it necessary to ban drugs? All kinds of games have drugs in them today, INCLUDING GTA 5.

7 minutes ago, Buck said:

I don't understand why you (most likely) spent a good amount of your life typing so much for a game. I haven't read the entire post because it's too long, I think you could have made a point in just a couple of paragraphs. 

 

I agree that the drug names should be related to real life, and I also agree to DamianC when he says that portraying drugs to a great detail is essentially portraying a real life detail that ruins countless lives and is pretty much horrific. 

 

This goes in the same bucket with RPing rape, dismemberment and other things in the likes. I honestly think that some things are better out of the game. For the ones that disagree, no offense but it's honestly not normal. 

Well, to start with, I would imagine it only took him about 20 minutes to actually type this.  That's not a good amount of his life.  That's 20 minutes.

You haven't read the entire post, so really you have no idea if he could have made his point in just a couple of paragraphs.

Yes, drugs ruin lives in real life, but that excuse is weak when it's okay to go out and commit multiple murders.

I don't think any kinds of roleplay should be banned because it sets a precedent that it's okay to ban roleplay.  Which is lame. 

Here's the logic:

The point of a game is fun. How does renaming drugs amplify fun? I do not think that's fun. If it's fun for you, why is it fun? Do you get fun out of me not having fun? In real life, drugs are not fun. I would not have fun with drugs. But this is a game, and people wish to portray gangs and organized crime properly where drugs are a huge industry - this is fun. In this context, drugs are fun. In real life, they are not fun. But this is a game. Would you not have fun doing wholesale drug deals where there is a potential to have more fun in the form of a shootout? That's fun. Shootouts are fun. What about that gang across the street that has been selling drugs in your territory? You get into a brawl. That's fun. In real life, that most certainly would not be fun. But it's a game.

"On the other hand, if the fictional drugs are implemented, what effect would they have? Is it beneficial? Is that not implying that drugs are beneficial for you? If drugs are beneficial in the script, that must mean they're beneficial in real life! Contrary to warnings provided to you by several different organizations funded by the government, life experience, and people I know having been addicted to drugs, because I saw a drug that was addictive in-game and beneficial, it means I should take it."

To desire to use or take a drug because you saw a drug in game requires a special level of mental gymnastics. Nobody from SAMP communities I've been at have ever committed a rape or a murder as a direct result of playing the server. It's the same principle as games causing violence - they don't, they're actually an outlet. It's the same reason people play GTA 5 and commit mass murders and rampages - no reasonable, sensible human being will take something they know from a videogame into real life unless there is some other identifiable issue with them. There is a difference between your real self and a character you portray. Just because I portray a scumbag meth dealer does not mean I am willing to deal meth in real life, as I have morality.

It's a game. What type of game is it? That's the question. Do we want to take the path that many people disagree with and which would harm their experience to have fun, or do we want to take a path where things have been tested before and fun will be had for both parties? That's the question. I want to have fun, you want to have fun. So how does having real drug names restrict your fun? If it doesn't, then let's have fun together.

I think you should read again what I said. I never brought up banning drugs, I just said that RPing them to a great detail doesn't seem okay. Same applies to murder and so on. There is no need to go into great detail with that, I never have and won't either. 

Given that you clearly didn't care enough as to read my reply before saying that I am pro banning drugs and telling me arrogantly that I did not read his topic to make myself an idea if he could shorten it up, I have to say that it seems to me like elitism got the best of you. 

14 minutes ago, Buck said:

I think you should read again what I said. I never brought up banning drugs, I just said that RPing them to a great detail doesn't seem okay. Same applies to murder and so on. There is no need to go into great detail with that, I never have and won't either. 

 

Given that you clearly didn't care enough as to read my reply before saying that I am pro banning drugs and telling me arrogantly that I did not read his topic to make myself an idea if he could shorten it up, I have to say that it seems to me like elitism got the best of you. 

Some people go into great detail with murder roleplay. The question is - to what extent is it acceptable? What extent do you think is acceptable? What if there is a need for your character to plan out a murder in great length in order to accomplish it? This does not mean you are murderous in real life if you do. In order to do any type of robbery or kidnapping roleplay, you need to plan. Is that great detail? Is it not OK to plan a crime before perpetrating it? To what detail do you think people should be able to go into with murder roleplay? In my personal opinion, so long as they are not dragging anything real-life into the game, it is acceptable. So long as they are not doing anything disgusting or depraved, it is acceptable. But murder itself is a taboo act and disgusting in itself. So how far can we go? What difference do you think there is between a gang shootout where someone is shot in the head and a meticulously planned murder of a mob associate by a rival crew?
 

The same principle is used with drugs. Why have fictional names if they have the same effect as in real life? Nobody accused you of being for banning drugs. We accused you of being for not having real life names for drugs within the script. In addition, in the way you wrote you also seem uncomfortable in general with roleplay around drugs. That begs the question - what roleplay are you comfortable with? In a server where murder, gang violence, and death are commonplace, will you be comfortable? Which is a reasonable accusation, and that is the position you have taken. Nobody is saying YOU need to go into great detail with it, but what's the issue if someone else voluntarily wants to? It doesn't harm you, does it? You don't need to read into the effects of the drug at all. You don't even need to interact with that person. You might not even interact with them. You probably even won't. The drug amplifies that person's character traits - if someone portrays a character with a meth addiction, they might be motivated to rob you for drug money. Is that what makes you uncomfortable? Would you be comfortable if somebody robbed you for no reason? If they were rich and had a Sultan and pulled up and demanded your money, which is the better scenario? What's the better roleplay? What's the better quality? Do you want to interact with the guy who's rich and robbed you just because or the guy who's addicted to meth and needs money to fuel his addiction?

7 minutes ago, Buck said:

I think you should read again what I said. I never brought up banning drugs, I just said that RPing them to a great detail doesn't seem okay. Same applies to murder and so on. There is no need to go into great detail with that, I never have and won't either. 

 

Given that you clearly didn't care enough as to read my reply before saying that I am pro banning drugs and telling me arrogantly that I did not read his topic to make myself an idea if he could shorten it up, I have to say that it seems to me like elitism got the best of you. 

I read your entire post.  I was referring to you throwing it in the same boat as rape and dismemberment and saying that those things are better left out of the game.  That sure sounds a lot like you advocating banning certain kinds of roleplay.  Why is it not okay to roleplay drugs in detail?  I enjoy that roleplay.  I think it's fun.  I'm not doing them in real life.  I'm not saying that anyone should do them in real life.  But it's fun to roleplay because it's part of my character.

And I'm not an elitist.  It's annoying that you're calling me one.

Bospy, going into great detail with murder RP doesn't include planning one. In my view, it includes RPing disgusting details too much during the murder itself. I have seen people who spend 30 minutes to RP dismemberment of the bodies into great detail which is disgusting.

I am not necessarily bothered by these things, I know when to quit a game, so don't worry about me. It comes down to the kind of psychopaths who really have to RP some details, it's not healthy. 

I am only stating my opinion in regards to drugs. Name them as you wish, I don't care. My opinion won't change much anyway, that I can assure you of, so it won't hurt your goal. 

If it annoys you being called an elitist, then consider not being one and you will do just fine. Let's stop derailing the topic, it's about drugs.